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Sense-Making Instrument

Using Sense-Making interviewing as one of several approaches to understanding deaf culture: Interview guide with one interview excerpt.

by

Albert Linderman
linde017@gold.tc.umn.edu

a. I want to focus on your processes.
b. This is attention on your actions (verbs not nouns).
c. It is how you go about dealing with a situation.

2. I want to ask you to tell me in your own words how you understand what this project is all about.

(Will evaluate responses for comprehension of the process. If respondent does not comprehend I will rephrase my explanation as follows: Tell me something that is going on in your life right now or recently in which you had to figure out something that you did not immediately understand how to deal with. (Respondent responds). What did you do (or what are you doing) in response to that situation? (Respondent responds). The actions involved in your response is what Sense-Making is trying to explore. I am interested in your actions and the thought processes that went along with them. This is what are interview cycle will cover.)

3. In order to begin this part of the interview cycle I want to get some understanding of you the person and where you are in life at this time. In order to do this I want to ask you about learning projects. Following this informational section we will move directly into the Sense-Making format.

SECTION 1
These questions will relate to any learning projects you have been involved with in the past year. By learning I don't necessarily mean what you learned in a classroom or a formal group (though it could be that), rather, I am interested in discovering what and how you learned anything new to you.

I do however, set some conditions on learning projects. These conditions are:

a. It is a deliberate attempt to learn or try to accomplish something new to you.

b. It must involve a minimum of seven hours of your time (which can be spread out over a day, week, or months) and can include as many hours as it took you to complete it.

c. It may include anything from building or remodeling something, pertaining to your employment, hobby, religion, family, sports, health, travel, and the like.

d. It may have been initiated and conducted by yourself or you may have had help from friends, employers, family, books, magazines, television, paid teachers, ministers, physicians, librarians, business people or whomever else may have had a part in helping you achieve the goal of your learning project.

Question #1
I will cover several categories of learning projects. Have you been involved in any learning projects in these categories over the past 12 months? Please respond with a description of the project and approximate number of hours worked on it. After we list projects we will go back and explore each project individually.

Focus	Code	Hours	Name of Project
Related to getting a new job	A1
	A2
Related to present employment	B1
	B2
Related to making something	C1
	C2
Related to improving something	D1
	D2
Related to recreation or hobby	E1
	E2
Related to family and health	F1
	F2
Related to religion	G1
	G2
Related to unique interest	H1
	H2
Other Projects	I1
	I2

Question #2
In real dollars and cents what were the costs and benefits of each of the above?

Question #3
What were the psychological and emotional costs and benefits? Elaborate.

Question #4
Who helped plan or provided important information for each of your learning projects? ("important information" is that without which you could not have completed or advanced your projects.)

a. myself

b. family

c. books, magazines (your own)

d. books, magazines (from a friend)

e. books, magazines (from a library)

f. TV, newspapers

g. friend

h. informal group

i. clergyman

j. physician

k. employer

l. paid teacher

m. public library

n. business person

o. computer network

p. other

Question #5
To determine how satisfied you were with the planners involved in your learning projects you are now requested to rate each planner on a scale from 1-5. Please elaborate on your answers.

1. no satisfaction
2. little satisfaction
3. satisfied
4. much satisfaction
5. complete satisfaction

Question #6
With each of the learning projects you have listed I would like to find out why you got involved in the project. Please elaborate.

a. necessity
b. curiosity
c. by chance
d. through an acquaintance
e. other

Question #7
In what settings did each learning project take place? Please elaborate on your answers.

1. formal classroom

2. informal group

3. with another person

4. TV satellite program

5. alone

6. other

If more than one kind of setting was used, prioritize your answers from most important to least important.

---

SECTION 2
In this section on Sense-Making I want to focus on some specific problems or challenges you have faced in the past year. Lets begin with whatever significant problem or challenge comes to your mind first (designated as "S1").

Question #1
How would you summarize S1?

Question #2
To begin to dig into the problem or challenge I will ask you to do a micro-moment time line S1. List in order the sequence of events of S1.

After we list the sequence of events we will go back and look at the process step by step and talk about your thoughts, feelings, and wants as you went through the process.

Event	Describe the Event	Date	Time
E1
E2
E3
E4

Question #3
Now lets go back to E1 and E2 and look at this part of the sequence of events in terms of specific barriers, questions, confusions, emotions and feelings, sources of help, ideas, and the like. In doing so we will be looking at the kinds of process you undertook to deal with S1. What got you stopped? What seems to be missing in your understanding? What are you trying to understand?

Question #4
What were your feelings at the moment?

sub question a. How did the time gap between E1 and E2 influence your feelings?

Question #5
What were your thoughts at the moment?

sub question a. How did the time gap between E1 and E2 influence your feelings?

Question #6
What strategies did you use to move to E2? What information sources did you access?

sub question a. Why did you access these sources?
sub question b. In what ways did you skim, interpret, or group the information you received?

Question #7
For the situation cited above, if you could have had exactly the help you wanted, what would it be? How would this have helped you? What would it help you do?

Question #8
How do you feel most Deaf people would have responded to the same situation you faced in E1?

(Following this working through the gap between E1 and E2 the sequence of questions will again be followed for the discussion of the gap between E2 and E3 and so on).

(Following the discussion of S1, further problems or challenges (S2, S3, S4, and so on) will be probed in the same manner as outlined above).

(Following the discussion of problems and challenges of the past year, current problems and challenges (CS1, CS2, etc.) will be probed.


PERSONOLOGICAL QUESTIONS USED DURING THE INTERVIEWS
1. Describe your earliest memories in detail.

What were you doing, thinking, feeling, wishing?
Who were you with and where?

2. Describe an incident out of character, when you acted, thought, or felt out of character.

Use the who, what, when, where, why, how method.

3. Divide your life story into chapters (4-7 chapters).

What was the plot of each chapter?
What was the turning point that led you into a new chapter of your life?

4. Describe any peak experiences.

5. Give details of an emotionally high moment from childhood.

6. Give details of an emotionally negative moment from childhood.

7. Describe a nadir of the past 8 years.

8. From both a natural and social environmental point of view what has had the greatest effect on determining who you are today?

9. Who are your models and heroes and why?

10. At an early age describe something you accomplished that gave you a sense of competence.

What were you thinking and feeling at the time?

Did anyone remark on your accomplishment?

11. Describe any dreams you had between the ages of 2 and 7.

 

12. Describe key episodes of your life that you have memories of.

How have these incidents shaped you?

13. In what ways have you remained the same over the past 20 or so years?

What continuities are there in your personality?

14. Discuss your basic thoughts and feelings about the universe and your place in it.

15. How have these beliefs changed in the past 10-15 years.

16. Why has humanity been placed on earth?

17. I will describe Erikson's 8 stages of life. Discuss how you see your life in comparison to these stages.

Are these descriptive of you?
Why or why not?
In what ways?

18. Discuss your occupational choice

What, when, where, how, why?

19. Discuss your vision for the future

20. What provides your life with meaning, happiness, fulfillment?

21. What are your outside commitments?

22. Talk about your close friends.

How often do you see them or talk with them?

What plans do you have for the future of these friendships?

23. Describe a typical workday

What makes you feel competent?
Plans for the future?

24. How much time do you spend with family?

What kinds of activities do you do together?

What is you future expectations concerning family?

AN EXCERPT FROM ONE INTERVIEW
The following is an excerpt from an interview with Dan Buccholz ,listed as D in the transcription and I am A. Buchholz has given permission for this excerpt to be included here. The English has not been completely cleaned up. The dialogue has the feel of a loose conversation.

A: Its been very interesting with the two other people that I've interviewed, how they have handled challenges, how they have solved problems as we've asked and dug into those issues. Now I want us to spend some time to start with talking about learning projects. We can categorize and list them. I wonder, to start with, if you have had anything here at work that you've been working on which could be described as a learning project?

D: Yes, first, I've been working on a committee, that's been dealing with the flow of information at work. The second learning project at work is related to software and learning how to use it.

A: About the first one, you say it relates to a flow of work here, could you tell me a little bit about what you mean.

D: Yes, I have become part of committee where we are wanting to analyze how the flow of work is accomplished. We want to improve our flow and make it more smooth.

A: Okay those are two learning projects related to work. We will go back to those and discuss them more. Lets list some other things that you may be involved with over the last year. Wonder, in terms of anything to do with your home, any learning projects?

D: Over the past year, I've actually been involved a lot in getting out to the Deaf community. So, I did have some interested things related to my daughter who went to Gallaudet, and I had to deal with learning how to do financial papers; Doing all the work that relates to getting her finances put together. There has been some misunderstandings with some of the way things are written in some of the manuals. It has been a little confusing.

A: Are you talking specifically about financial aid?

D: Yes, financial aid and issues of SSI as it relates to that. Some of my interactions as I've tried to get some clarification of some of this has brought about misunderstandings between myself and a couple of hearing people that I've worked with. We've both misunderstood each other.

A: I know what you mean. Some of those papers are pretty tough to handle. I've experienced some of that myself.

D: My life's been a lot different with my kids related to college and their life changes has certainly influenced my life as well. There has certainly been some learning I've done related to that. Also this year, I have looked to find a sponsor for my son's motorcycle racing. He's a very skilled motorcycle racer. So I've been trying to find out how to find some sponsors and support for him in that. I've done some learning around that as well.

A: How old is your son.

D: He is 21. Would you like for me to explain a little about my family.

A: Yeah, that would be great. Go ahead and tell me about your family.

D: Oh, also, just to let you know, I've had a challenge because of being the chair of National Deaf Softball Association. That has been a very big challenge because of looking to find money to support that organization. That has been part of the responsibilities as well. And I've had to work with the organization on some important issues related to the health of the organization. Whereas some of the other people would prefer to deal with other side issues. So those are a couple of other areas.

A: OK. Go ahead and tell me about your children, I'm curious.

D: My oldest daughter is 26. She has a BA degree and is now on her way to a MA. Her name is Kim. I'm not sure specifically what her major is for her MA. She is going to Western Maryland college right now. She graduated from Gallaudet, by the way. All four of my kids are Deaf. Jason is now in Gallaudet. He is going to be a junior. He has got 3 or 4 more credits to become a junior. He is the one who is involved with the motorcycle. He is 21. Then my 19 year old graduated from mainstream High School. Her name is Christina. She is [probably] going to be going to Gallaudet. She has already done her application.

A: You're going to have to know soon, because it's about time for school to start.

D: Yes, I'm not sure what is going to happen Then my fourth is in eighth grade. His name is Jeremiah. And he goes to the Minnesota school for the Deaf. Christina went mainstream until high school. In high school, she transferred to MSD. My boy graduated from Faribault.

A: That's interesting how varied they are. Now, back to talking about learning projects. Can you think of any other possible learning projects in the past year?

D: I'm always interested in history matters and science. I always find a lot of interest in those areas, because I know history repeats itself. That's something I keep my eye on. But I've been very busy with family this year so I can't say I've done a lot with that. I've done a lot of reading on surface things, but I know that when I've done doing a lot of the projects that I've worked on this year, I'm going to do some more reading than what I've been doing.

A: OK, in terms of the softball, is this something's that you have been doing for many years, or is this your first year?

D: A couple of years ago I won the bid to become the chairperson, so I chose a committee. But our main focus has been on money issues. We needed a professional fund-raiser. We used to have 90 teams in the USA. We're down to 19. Its difficult to say want kind of support we are going to get. There have been a lot of cuts. A lot of organizations haven't supported us like they have in the past. I did some research about how the money had been spent in the past and how its going to be spent now. We've got some big challenges related to that.

A: I want to come back to what you said in the beginning when you talked about, working on this flow committee. I would like to go deeper on that subject. I have some specific questions. Thus far we have listed 6 learning projects you have been involved with over the last year. I don't know if we will get in depth on all 6. I want to start with talking about the first one, the flow committee. Give me a rundown on the process of your involvement in that committee. What happened first, second, and so on?

D: Well, as far as all of the people in our area, there's about 30. There are 5 Deaf people and 25 hearing people. It includes artists and paste up and typesetters and accounting people. Then a separate group exists for sales. We haven't had very good work flow coordinating all the workers together. We have had from $50-75,000 per month loss from advertising, because of a poor flow, things like not meeting our deadlines. That is one of the several reasons we came up with that amount of loss. So we chose several from among our group to become part of a committee. Some of those were saying there should be a Deaf person involved and it seemed to naturally go to me. I thought it would worth having a Deaf person there as well, so I accepted to become involved with the committee. Its a big challenge for me.

A: So first the large group met to choose the committee and you were chosen?

D: Yes. I was chosen since there are one or two that work nights and this is the wrong time for them. Because of my work schedule, with the 3 of us that work during the day time, it seemed appropriate for me to do it.

A: What led you to accept the position on the committee?

D: Well its part of my job. I'm working to have the company improve. I get my pay from my job and I do care to have the company improve. I do know we have to work together. It's not really an issue of pride or anything like that. Its a part of my duties.

A: Is working on this committee taking your time from your other work or other projects?

D: Yeah, it does, but its worth it.

A: Does it cause you any extra pressure?

D: No the company is pretty flexible. They don't complain too much about the work flow or production of work. I would say there are about 12 people in the design and paste-up area and each one takes whichever is next in line. So, it hasn't been an extra burden or pressure for me. The flow has stayed good. Would you like to know how the meeting is run.

A: Yes, I got a feel for it, because I interpreted that one time. But, do you feel like you have been learning, profiting about how things work or understanding more, that you have improved in your understanding since you have been a part of it?

D: Well, I think what I do is understand people better.

A: Talk more about that. What leads you to say that?

D: Well, sometimes I see a person who might appear to be a fairly shy and inferior person. Then, we get into this meeting and they get become very active. They share and are actually more intelligent than I would have thought. I found out, when I got in the meeting and discussed it, they are pretty intelligent, and they have some excellent things to share. As we sit around the table and discuss issues, I've had a chance to write back and forth with some people. There is one particular woman who is very quiet. She wrote to me and I saw the way she wrote English and how she put it together. I was very impressed with her writing ability, and her conciseness with her writing. With a couple of the others, their writing was nothing special. But I've realized that there is a variety of persons on this committee and a variety of talents. This one particular woman has particularly impressed me with her writing ability. And its been interesting to see other persons points of view. We've all had different points of view about what the priority of the meeting should be. Its been interesting to see what different people say what our priorities should be. So I just think as the whole process has been going, I' ve been understanding really more about people and how they work and I've enjoyed that.

A: Have you ever been involved with a group of hearing people before in anything like this?

D: No, in the past, its always been the boss making all the decision for many years and now with this new way of doing things and the committee working together, there is a big difference. So its my first experience like this.

A: Do you have any idea as far as the future goes, if there any potential for any promotion that may come about in the future.

D: I really doubt that the company wants us to do a lot of advancement. There seems to be more of a desire to be in teams and not to have bosses or managers. There will be more of a team concept. And so, I doubt there is going to be any kind of promotions, because we're going into more of a team concept.

A: I know a lot of companies have cut out the middle managers.

D: As far as a promotion as a goal, I don't really look forward to things that way. I know my work skills are good, and I do know what to expect with my job, the company does seem to want to improve communication. Whether there is Deaf or hard of hearing, things have really been getting better. We've got a better understanding what is going on with the company. As far as how you get promoted it seems the company is going to require college degrees. I have noticed some jobs and the requirements for them have been demanding.

A: It seems from what you shared with me that you enjoy your work a lot more now.

D: [nods yes]

A: Have you had a chance to share with the other Deaf employees your feelings and your experiences as you have been a part of this committee?

D: Yes I have. Although there haven't been a lot of details that I've been able to explain, because with the union, we are pretty well told what is going on. Mostly I've had a chance to explain some things about how work flow is changing, in terms of when deadlines are to be expected and giving some of the rationale for why. Having some complaints about how things are going for them. Maybe because night and day shift work is quite a bit different. My role has been to just explain how work flow proceeds and some of the rationale from it. But if there is any real complaint, the employee has to go to the union. I don't make the decisions of course. The committee is the one who is involved with how the work flow works and the changes that are being made.

A: Do you think things are getting better, and money is being saved?

D: I noticed that during first meeting or two, there was a bit of ignoring of people. They may not have been comfortable with me. As time went on, I increased my involvement. People have been more willing to share than before. We have done a little bit of teasing. I've certainly been listening to people. We've had a chance to hear different people's opinions. We've been improving and I have been enjoying it.

A: I'm wondering if the productivity is improving.

D: Yes, the number of mistakes have been cut down, quite a bit. I would say we're probably about $20,000 mistakes. We have made some definite improvements in the mistake load compared with had before. We have also been able to distribute work more evenly and have the duties be more fairly shared And as far as the amount of time when work comes in and when it gets out, we have reduced that time. We are doing things faster than when we have done in the past. We still have some improvement we have to do with our sales people: Get a little more feedback with the sales person and mesh together with them a little better. There has been some confusion still, when the sales people interact with us. But certainly the committee has done a good job saving some money.

A: I think that's enough of the work flow subject. You mentioned in the past year you have been involved with fund raising for your national Softball Association and also for your son's motorcycle and also related to your daughters education.

D: Well, at one point, being involved with D.E.A.F., we were encouraged to write grants. But since I didn't have much skill in that, I didn't pursue it and didn't really learn about the grant system. But now, as the President of DEAF Softball Association, I am required to raise money.

A: Can you raise money from anywhere across the US?

D: Yes. I'm able to go anywhere in the US to raise money and I would raise it from big corporations, like MCI or American Express. And I let these corporations know, there are many teams that are involved with this and many of thousands of Deaf people that can be reached through advertising. I've been focusing on fund raising in the local area. Hopefully finding a corporation that will realize the value of giving money to the association when it's playing in their home tow. So I've talked recently to the Scott Mayer Corporation about fund raising. They have some relationship with softball. They gave some money to the association before, so I chose talk to this particular company to raise money. I've been letting Scott Mayer know of the potential benefit of reaching Deaf people through advertising at the National Softball tournament. Not only are there the people that attend the softball tournament, perhaps around 4000 people from different parts of America, but they of course have their relatives. Also, they make contact with other local teams that did not make it to the National tournament. Nationwide, there are perhaps 400 Deaf teams. I let them know how there is a lot of potential marketing that they can do, by advertising with us. My goal is to give them a vision of what they will benefit, by giving us money for this. And I've also spoken with a local Coca Cola distributor about supporting the National softball tournament. It was interesting that he had a good deal of resistance to the idea. Unlike the man at Scott Mayer who was pretty aware of the Deaf world. This particular gentleman wasn't even sure that Deaf people would be on softball teams. So I had to do a lot of basic explanation with him. When I started talking with him about the numbers of people who were going to be involved and the families of the 3 or 4 thousand people who were among, I was certainly able to create some interest. I was able to also share with him about how there is a very highly networked Deaf community around the company. I showed him Deaf Life and Silent News as examples of wide reaching publications that reach hundreds of thousands of homes, perhaps into the millions. And so that of course, was the idea to help these businesses be aware of the potential for success for their advertising. Now, I have been put on hold until '97 to hear the results of whether or not we are going to get the larger grants from these companies. Some of the typical fund-raisers such as parties and the like, generally do not earn a lot of money. And we are not able to depend on the funds from those kinds of sources to support the needs we have. So we are going to have to wait and hear back from Scott Mayer and Coca Cola.

A: Are you contacting anybody else?

D: We are really focusing most of the energies on Scott Mayer, because the grant we get from him would be significant. Also, there is the difficulty if we focus on two major donors like Scott Mayer, we can only have one major sponsor. We are trying to sell the sponsorship of the tournament to Scott Mayer as the major sponsor of the tournament, instead of dividing it up to a few smaller groups. We are looking for one major sponsor.

A: So what you are saying is, you are going to do it consecutively. You'll try one and if it doesn't work, you will try another.

D: Its a hassle of course, doing this fund raising, every time we go talk, we need to have an interpreter. And the expenses, of course, add up quickly when you have a number of meetings with an interpreter, using interpreters. And so that's been draining off some of the funds.

A: When do you think you are going to hear?

D: Between 6 to 8 months. They will make their grant decisions.

A: If they don't come through, what are you going to do?

D: Yeah, Probably, I'm going to be in trouble. The committee will all come together and we'll talk about our options at that particular time.

A: When did you contact Scott Mayer?

D: Just a couple of months ago.

A: Okay, now lets talk about your son's motorcycle experience.

D: My son has won a number of trophies with his motorcycle raising and now that he's a college student, he wants to keep up with his racing which is a little bit difficult as a college student. So I had been contacting 3 or 4 businesses, to get some support for him and his motorcycle. Famous places such as Honda are not going to sponsor him, because they only go with people who are well known. But I have been going to some unknown places, businesses, there is a place, a small company that I have done business with that I am thinking of getting some support from. Just last week, my son went to learn some information about how to do fund raising. But it seemed like that information was more day to day, getting of money and how you might conserve money in certain ways. But I want to focus specifically on raising money to support a motorcycle racer. I've done some reading and some studying and I know its not easy and you have to pay from your own pocket to get into the races. If you win enough, your name gets recognized and you can get the sponsors. My son and I have gone to some places and talked and had some good talks with a number of places. Most people say, they can't do anything. A good motorcycle is probably around $5000 or so. And of course, my son is a student and that's pretty expensive. Then you have got to consider the cost of parts that go along with it. I would like to find someone to sponsor at least 1/2 of it. Half of the cost of the motorcycle. Then of course, there is the difficulty we have, contacting through telephone, we have to use the relay service and that is a bit frustrating, because there is some technical motorcycle language that is difficult to communicate and sometimes in the translation, it gets lost. Its hard to find someone who is really skilled in this area that could interpret and handle as a go between for the communication.

A: Where did your son's love of motorcycles come from.

D: Well from me. I've ridden motorcycles for 25 years. And ever since my son was about 7 or 8 years old, I've taught him some things about motorcycles and he has become quite skilled at it. He is quite a skilled driving.

A: Well, what about you?

D: I have a motorcycle from Sweden.

A: What kind of motorcycle is it.

D: Its a Husvera, from Sweden that has changed to an Italian company. My boy has a Honda. Of course, Hondas used to be cheaper, now they are expensive.

A: Does your son Jeremiah like motorcycles.

D: Yes he does, but he is not at skilled as his older brother. Perhaps because he didn't start until he was 10 or 11, but he is certainly interested in it.

A: You never know, he might pick it up as he gets older

D: I told my kids that of course motorcycles are quite a bit more expensive than they used to be. They have probably gone up twenty times in cost. My salary's gone up 2 or 3 times.

A: What got you interested in motorcycles?

D: When I was about 21 I started competing in motorcycle races. This lasted all the way to about 37 when I stopped. My kids were growing up, so I stopped racing about 37: Money issues and other things. Now I just more go for fun.

A: Tell me more about the races and how you handled the challenges of them.

D: Well, sometime, there would be frustration, obstacles along the way. When you are in the race things would happen. I would get very frustrated and I start thinking negative. Part of it was because I was hungry, or maybe it was due to lack of sleep. or just not being physically fit. I' hadn't been eating the right kinds of food. But, by the end of the race, I was able to stop and think and ask why I'm so negative. I realized I needed to adjust myself to be more positive. So the next race, I would do better. Other obstacles would be things like lousy weather, it might or might not rain. These things can cause frustrations and negatives and make you want to give up. So I've had to learn to overcome those weaknesses. I think its helped me to play better in other sports, like basketball and other kinds of competition that I'm involved with. I'm learning how to fight through things and not be a quitter. Not give up. It's been a big challenge for me.

A: At that time, when you felt like quitting what was going on in your mind?

D: I knew that sometimes when I was in the middle of the race, I might quit, but then I would get home and try to think about it and try to look back and realized that I could of made it through if I would have just stuck with it. So I started to realize I needed to be prepared next time I faced frustrations like that. I learned to overcome it with my mind's power: To think positive.

A: What allowed you to deal with these frustrations?

D: I really do believe that, part of my philosophy is, I can improve myself in my life and that I should be always working and improving myself. I believe that everybody has faults and weaknesses. And I think its important for me to work on those things to try to improve. I've always believed that it is important for me to work on overcoming those things. Maybe some of it comes from my family and their being Christian and positive and encouraging us. So I've probably developed that, partly because of when I did a lot of traveling. It was interesting for me to see a lot of people's faults, and realize that people have weaknesses. I think I started learning from that time, that I needed to start working on my own faults. When I moved here to Minnesota, when I was 21, I was frustrated there for awhile because Minnesota was pretty cliquish. They didn't seem to allow outsiders to come in. So I'd spend time with my girlfriend and I would want to be involved with clubs and other activities. But a lot of people were cold to me when I first moved here. People seemed to have a hard time accepting me. Part of that helped me to examine myself and try to find the kind of things I had done that would influence some people not to like me. And I wanted to overcome, whatever I might have been doing. But I realize, sometimes, people just rejected me for who I was. I certainly did not want to treat other people that way. It would be frustrating when I would go somewhere and not be welcomed. Certainly, Minnesota people are very cliquish. Probably until about 1975, things opened up and I was kind of able to break the ice and get involved more with people in Minnesota. When I grew up at the residential school, it was common for people to insult each other. So, in one sense I learned at the School, they let us know our faults right away. People would say, why do you do that always. And so then you could learn people didn't like the way I did something. Or we didn't like the way another person did something. We would all be correcting each other. And that happened a lot in the School. Then as far as sports, it would just be an hour or two hours and it wouldn't be that big of a challenge but when I got into motorcycle racing, it was such an effort to do 4 hours. And I was expending so much energy, it just taught me more than I learned before. I seemed to learn better. I've been involved with the Deaf community in a number of different ways. I've seen how some people resist my talk or my leadership, but there have been some older people in the Deaf community who have advised me and given me suggestions as to how I can ask questions, get answers and then maybe from the answer to take leadership from that point. I know sometimes people feel insulted when I argue or challenge them, so they avoided me. This has been part of my learning process as I've been involved with the Deaf community. And of course leaders face these kinds of problems regularly. So I've been learning from this.

A: In the Deaf School, as you were being insulted, what were the things that they kept picking on you about?

D: Oh, about my arguing. I guess because they all came from hearing families, where they weren't used to free exchange of ideas, as I was with my all Deaf family. They always said I argued a lot. It was difficult to learn a different way from my family way. When I would challenge them with whatever we might be discussing about, they would sometimes feel like I was too strong. I was also a late bloomer. I used to be fairly weak when I was growing up. My freshman year in high school, I was small. As a sophomore, I was 120 lbs. Junior, 140 lbs. And by the time I was a Senior, I was almost 200 lbs. Then of course people stopped picking on me, as I got older.

A: Were there any other faults people seemed to get on you about?

D: No, really, it was just the one. The fact that I liked to argue a lot.
When I was a kid, I would always try to play as much as I could with the older kids with sports. I was also the ping pong champ in High School, with hearing high school students.

A: Getting back to how you might change as an adult, what are some of the ways you might have changed.

D: When I was younger, I probably jumped to conclusions. I probably spoke out more. I probably was more aggressive. As I have gotten older, I have become more careful, and make sure that I understand what the person is saying before I snap back at them. I can't say that I've really changed my personality at all.

A: So, what is it that has made you become slower at talk than now jumping to conclusions.

D: Well, probably just getting older. One interesting experience I had came from my involvement in the athletic program of the Minnesota Association of Deaf Citizens, called Minnepaul. The MADC did not organize it a lot. It was in sort of a club form. I was chosen at one point to go meet with MADC and work towards getting some support from them. During that process I learned a lot. As I went and discussed with people all the various aspects of the situation, I noted people getting angry with me and not accepting some of the things I was talking about. There was a man from the Athletic Association of the Deaf who was involved in the discussion. I was hitting on several very strong points. After it was all over, no one gave me any feedback. But I left and someone told me I was making my points a little too strongly, and that I needed to ask questions and allow people to talk and process it a little bit. He said they needed time to think it through in order to decide where to support and accept what I was saying. So I did learn to change my way of approaching people. Some of the older people at that time were looking at me as a young person who didn't want to accept some of the things I was saying. So, in some ways, I've learned the hard lesson of how to change. That's certainly one thing that I've changed over the years. I've been involved with a lot of different issues, political things and the like.

A: Do you remember as far as you looking back anytime when you did or felt something out of character for you or that didn't fit with you

D: You mean like blowing my top, which I would not normally do?

A: Yeah, was there something. You mentioned you are pretty aggressive and that you are a pretty positive person. You have talked a little bit about your personality, and I'm just wondering if you can look back and remember when you did something that was completely out of character for who you are. Can you remember even where you may have surprised yourself with what you thought or felt.

D: You know, I don't recall anything. Can you give me an example

A: I grew up with German parents who used to drink everyday, but they were never drunk. I never saw them drunk. Had they have been drunk, it would have been out of character for them. And I never have been drunk. That would be out of character. I'm talking about something like that. That's one example. Maybe if you normally keep control and had a situation where you have lost control.

D: You know, I never really did anything out of character. As far as my family goes, if I did something bad out of character, there would of been hell to pay for it. One little thing, I guess often I say to myself, things like, I wonder why preachers or society people, will use fear to try to get people to behave. I always felt people can best learn by mistakes. They will learn, if they do something wrong. They will not try to do it again. Let people learn through their mistakes. Let them be curious, let them try things. If it doesn't work, then they can overcome it. If they have never gotten drunk and they get drunk, and they get an idea of what it is like and they realize the next day, they are going to get a headache, they are not going to feel good.

 

 

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